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TOPIC: Proposed "Modified Double Elim State Tourney |
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| Moose
March 19, 2009
3:36:25 PM
Entry #: 3093183
| What do you boys think of this?
WBA Modified Double-Elimination Tournament
Proposal
• A 32-team, seeded, modified double-elimination tournament over three
weekends instead of two.
• The first round of the playoffs will stay a single-elimination, play-in round. The
rest of the playoffs would then shift to double-elimination.
Rationale
• A double-elimination tournament will get the best teams in the WBA to the state
finals, acting as a counterweight to teams with only one great pitcher and the
fluke wins and losses caused by bizarre bounces of the baseball. Doubleelimination
adds reliability and validity to tournament results.
• Most teams that make the playoffs have committed rosters who love to play
baseball, and making the playoffs is a big reward. A double-elimination
tournament provides for more playoff baseball for the final 16 teams.
• Adding two more spots for bidding will increase the amount of money the WBA
takes in to cover the cost of the extra umpires necessary for a doubleelimination
tournament.
Positives of the plan
• There is not a tremendous amount of change that comes with the format.
Seeding and bidding can stay the same as we still need seeds for each regional,
and we still need four regional sites.
• The single elimination, do-or-die component is still retained, in the first round
games and in the losers’ bracket.
Negatives of the plan
• Higher umpiring costs for 46 total games versus the current 31.
o Based on $125 per game for a home plate and base umpire, that’s an
increase of $1,875.
Implementation
• There would need to be six bidding sites instead of four.
o Four sites for regional playoffs the first weekend, and two sites for the
“Sectional” playoffs the second weekend.
o The addition of two bids will offset higher umpiring costs.
• Seeding would only slightly change.
o At each regional, teams will be seeded 1-8 rather than 1-4.
Frequently Asked Questions
Q: Why do we have to be like Minnesota? Their tournament takes forever and they have
to start all the way back in July.
A: We aren’t, and don’t have to start in July. In Minnesota, their state tournament is a
true double-elimination, where everyone makes the playoffs and they begin playing off
in regions. One thing we like about the WBA tournament is that it puts an emphasis on
winning regular season games in order to earn a bid. We feel that teams that do earn
that bid should be given the reward of a little more baseball if we can.
Q: Doesn’t this bracket favor teams with more pitching?
A: The short answer is yes – but doesn’t more pitching make a better “team?” The
current format, single-elimination, favors teams with more pitching anyway – that is
true of any tournament where teams play on consecutive days. However, a team with
three good pitchers could still plow its way through the winners’ bracket in this bracket.
In order for teams to gain more pitching for a double-elimination tournament, drafting
rules could be modified to allow teams to pick up one or two pitchers.
Q: Are you idiots trying to turn this into a softball tournament?
A: Absolutely not! In this bracket, teams are not playing more than two games in a day,
and in fact, under almost all circumstances, they are mostly only playing one. Further,
we are not advocating that the championship game have an “if necessary” game – we
think the final day of WBA baseball should still be one game for all the marbles.
Q: Okay, fine, where are the brackets?
A: Next page.
We sincerely thank you for taking the time to read through this proposal, and we look
forward to hearing any feedback you have. Please don’t hesitate to contact us by email
or by phone.
Sincerely,
Brady Randolph, Prescott Pirates Josh Eidem, River Falls Fighting Fish
brady.randolph@gmail.com eidemj@gmail.com
(612) 310-0927 (651) 335-0030
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| Brill15
March 19, 2009
3:50:11 PM
Entry #: 3093191
| I don't like the idea myself. It’s a situation where the current format has served well for quite a while. Teams have gotten used to it and it hasn't had any glaring flaws. There are pros and cons to each situation, just as there are pros and cons to the way the NCAA does basketball finals vs. the NBA. Unless the current system is doing something obviously wrong I don't think you have any case to make major changes to it.
The arguments about teams winning on just one good pitcher are unfounded, yea, maybe a lower team beats a better team because they have one great pitcher, but how often does that lower team go on to win it. And beyond that, how can you guarantee that better team that got beat by the bad team w/ an ace would have really done that well. It's a crap shoot and baseball is a game that doesn't really work like football or basketball with the better teams winning 80-90% of the time. Any team can beat any other team on any day once you get to the state level. We don't play enough games around the state to really know who should beat who, and even if we did play a lot of games against all of those teams I bet everyone's winning percentage would fall between .333 and .667 like in MLB. Also, a lot of times the teams with the most talent aren't the ones who play the best ball. We've definitely beaten teams more talented than us with hustle, defense, and them making an error or two. Now are they the better team or are we? How do you ever prove someone has been slighted by the format or that they would have won a series?
I don't think this will pass at all and if it does I guess we'll just have to work with it, but it seems like more complication than it's worth. To do any double elimination model means more games and the tournament just doesn’t have time for it. It's scheduled the way it is now to allow for some weather and the ability to move games around with only a couple a day for the finals. If you start trying to pack a couple more games in that final weekend and you have to delay any of them due to rain you're running into a huge mess to re-schedule and fit everything in.
Finally, if you know going in that it's do or die every game then if you deserve to be the state champions you'll overcome that ace. No one, and I mean NO ONE at any of the state tournament's we've been to, has a pitcher that is truly unbeatable. There are guys who throw 90 and guys with great stuff, but no team has had a guy who I would say doesn't even let the other team put the ball in play. Because once it's in play, that stud pitcher can't do anything and you have to have a defense to get the guys out. A great example is our team the first time we went to state a few years ago. Roth threw an unbelievable game but due to a couple errors on our (my) part they beat us. The pitcher they had was great too but we almost scored due to their mistakes as well.
Just my initial thoughts, I'll roll it around more in my head this weekend and maybe I'll come to different conclusions.
-Kirby
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| Moose
March 19, 2009
7:35:07 PM
Entry #: 3093469
| I agree with you Kirby. I maybe could have said it in a few less words, but you definitely hit the high points.
I'd add this-one of the biggest arguements was to give a team that "extra chance" if they had a bad game. A team might need the extra chance in the first round and you don't get it because it's still a single elimination round. So you're still screwed.
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| Brill15
March 20, 2009
8:27:23 AM
Entry #: 3093933
| Sorry about the long post, I get passionate about things and I really dislike when I make short points and people go, "oh, but that doesn't fully cover this argument..." Although I'm sure people could still argue against what I said above, ok, i'm done now
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| 3
March 20, 2009
9:55:54 AM
Entry #: 3094043
| My initial thought yesterday was "more baseball!" But after thinking about it, it couldn't work for our league in particular, because with more teams making playoffs, there would be no pitchers left in the league to draft. And we would not be able to do that format with four or five arms. The knights only have 5 arms to throw also, Hornets may have a couple more. My point is that adding a couple of extra draft picks doesn't solve anything for smaller town baseball.
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| Big Bear
March 21, 2009
8:39:20 AM
Entry #: 3094941
| O.K. I'll counter your arguments. First, is this really going to come to the WBA for a vote? If so, our team and style of play is going to be vastly outvoted by the cocky, arrogant college based teams that are the ones who came up with this format in the first place, and coincidentally the ones who we always beat and then after the game they sulk and say, "we could beat that team on any given day" let em' keep saying it. My point to all this is there are a lot of teams near the MN border who feel this way about the State tournament format, and we may be outnumbered on this one!
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