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TOPIC: WBA Live Feed |
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| Live Feed Viewer
August 3, 2011
10:19:41 AM
Entry #: 3774990
| Glad to see how the seeding meetings work out, thanks WBA.
Also glad to see anyone can just talk their way into the tourney. I think next year we should only play 3 games and then show up at the meeting with stats about how we won on Thursday's against left handed pitchers only when there weren't lights on the field and be able to get in.... Christ!
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| Siren
August 3, 2011
11:33:32 AM
Entry #: 3775050
| We didn't lose a single game this year to lefty pitchers on Thursday nights when there weren't any lights.
We totally shoulda got in. Holler!
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| 3-Means
August 3, 2011
12:31:13 PM
Entry #: 3775094
| I like both posts and I am not afraid to put my name to it. It is not just the people in the Indy who noticed what happened last night.
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| Tesch
August 3, 2011
1:40:25 PM
Entry #: 3775152
| Touche to all of that.
What else did you hear Franky?
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| unkown
August 3, 2011
3:41:10 PM
Entry #: 3775238
| bba is the most important stat anyways.
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| Meaningless
August 3, 2011
10:06:42 PM
Entry #: 3775394
| Oh boy...Frankie isn't afraid to post his name...to bad nobody cares - it's meaning...less. What a putz.
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| Grammar Police
August 4, 2011
9:03:14 AM
Entry #: 3775545
| Too bad you don't know how to choose which "to/too" to use.
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| 3
August 4, 2011
9:54:08 AM
Entry #: 3775577
| I think that people do care about the seeds and how teams get into the playoffs, and I know that nobody really gives a shit whether or not I agree with how the meeting went down.
There are numerous shots that I want to take regarding this, but I will not go any further, I have to start packing my bags for another state finals appearance.
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| 3
August 4, 2011
9:55:03 AM
Entry #: 3775578
| Dont worry Kirby, I knocked on wood already...
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| Tesch
August 4, 2011
10:52:34 AM
Entry #: 3775610
| That rules Frank! I really want to know the other opinions......
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| Tesch
August 4, 2011
10:54:52 AM
Entry #: 3775612
| Oh, and I do care about how teams get into the playoffs. I'm super happy they had the live feed. I think it's important to know who stands up for what teams and forgets other teams, along with how tie breakers and boarder line teams are either let in or booted.
Next year they should have a live chat for the viewers on the feed to give our comments on what's happening live. So everyone in the room can see how the viewers feel!!
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| Deluxe
August 4, 2011
10:54:56 AM
Entry #: 3775613
| (Caution - allocate at least 10 minutes to read and digest all of this - Frankie, you should probably allocate closer to half an hour...haha)
Hey everybody,
After speaking to some people knowledgeable of the WBA seeding process as well as doing some digging of my own into the WBA bylaws (which can be found at www.wisconsinbaseball.org under the “Documents” section along the top), this post is an attempt at some clarification of what happened at the meeting Tuesday night.
Each year one of the responsibilities of the league is to send a representative to the WBA seeding meeting, and part of that representative’s responsibility is to speak up and make a case for the teams in our league that are on the bubble for making the tournament. Past examples of teams who have been advocated for from the Indy include: the St. Croix Ravens making the tournament as the 7th place team in the league in 2009, Cumberland in 2007, and Weyerhaeuser in earlier years. That is the responsibility of the league representative, to present evidence for teams in your league on why they should be in the WBA playoffs. Before Tuesday, our league representative from Tuesday night had contacted the coaches from the top three teams in our league, who are also all Indy league board members to ask who would be representing the Indy at the seeding meeting. None of the three were available to make it to the meeting, and it was agreed upon between at least two of those board members and the individual who ended up representing the league on who would go.
The stats and comparisons across the bubble teams were available for whoever would be representing the league, which turned out to be a member from that bubble team, which I think is what made things look controversial. The statistics showed that the Hornets had been far more competitive against the top teams in the Indy League than any of the other bubble teams were against the top teams in their respective leagues. After presentation of those stats, the decision was made fairly quickly, but had more evidence needed to be presented, statistics regarding the strength of the Independent League were also available. Some of these stats/facts included the Knights winning the WBA last year, and finishing as runners-up in 2009. The Knights have been in the finals 4 of the last 5 years, and Brill in the finals five times in last ten years. Both the Knights and Brill in state Semi-final games in 2008, and Grantsburg state runners-up in 2006 were also available stats to demonstrate the strength of the league and would have been mentioned if necessary.
Admittedly, at the time of the meeting I was one of those who felt that things appeared controversial, but upon reading the bylaws late that night and again the next day, as well as talking to a few individuals who attended Tuesday’s meeting and past meetings, I think it was the fact that the bubble team the representative was battling for happened to be their own team this year, although the same person has advocated for other teams from the league in the past as mentioned above.
As far as Ashland C&S goes, they ended up being the odd-man out and aren’t happy about it, I’d be pissed if I were them too. However, the leagues are responsible for determining their own tie-breakers and ranks for each team within their respective league heading into the seeding meeting so that decision doesn’t have to be made by the WBA board. That wasn’t done heading into Tuesday night, and therefore the board was left to make a difficult decision, which no matter what the outcome, someone wasn’t going to be happy. It is disappointing to not make the playoffs, but in all honesty, when’s the last time a #4 seed won the WBA tournament? (I haven’t researched this, so if I’m wrong feel free to correct me.)
My personal stance is that the bylaws seem very vague regarding this issue, as there is no hierarchy determined as far as what weighs more heavily, for example: winning percentage vs. proportional league representation. This leaves the importance of winning percentage and league representation up for discussion instead of creating a clear tiebreaking/ranking system that is set from the start of the year. As I mentioned to a few people Tuesday night/Wednesday morning (it was also mentioned in an email chain I received today), if we completely followed the proportional league representation, the Eau Claire Bears (12-8) who were the 6th of an 11-team league to make it, could have been booted in favor of Taylor County at 7-6 who would have been the 7th team from a 14-team league. Clearly, that doesn’t seem fair, and thus Eau Claire made it and Taylor County didn’t. I think this issue is surprisingly comparable to the BCS/playoff format of college football. The odd team out is never going to be happy, and until we find a perfect rankings system we won’t be able to satisfy everyone – and even then, somebody will still end up pissed.
So, with that said, here are my recommendations to avoid this controversy in future years:
-Clarify Article 13.4 of the WBA bylaws to establish a clear-cut hierarchy of what determines our 32 playoff teams.
-More communication by all leagues between their teams and league representatives before the seeding meeting.
-If you want to assure yourselves a spot in the playoffs, finish as one of the bona fide top three teams in your league, you’ll get in then.
And one more thing: While it’s been pretty controversial and heated, it’s pretty awesome this tournament is has created as much emotion and discussion as it has. It’s great to see that this league, the WBA, and baseball in general mean a lot to people across this part of the state. I know it’s kept myself and multiple members of our team coming back year after year despite increased conflict with jobs and travel. We’ve got a pretty good thing going for us here.
Good luck to all teams! (Especially the Knights)
As always, feel free to respond.
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| Tesch
August 4, 2011
11:09:03 AM
Entry #: 3775621
| My one question is, if there were 3 9-7 teams fighting for 2 spots at the bottom of the playoffs, why did another team who wasn't one of those 3 fighting get booted? Shouldn't the fight to make it stay between the 3 who are tied and on the bubble?
An example of this was addressed, the bears made it. Why didn't they get booted? Or what if only 5 teams would have made it from our league and 9 made it from the upper 13... do the teams that have a higher winning % from the upper 13 get booted because it's not a fair percentage of teams in vs. teams in the league?
Stupid rule. Simple way to figure it out.....
Top winning % plays the bottom winning %, 2nd top % plays second lowest % and so on. Once this is figured out then send teams to where they're playing. Yep, some teams will have do drive, but guess what, it's cut and dry. Oh, and if there's a tie at the bottom, playoff to get in, just like college basketball.
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| Point Crapper Onner
August 4, 2011
11:12:24 AM
Entry #: 3775625
| Upper 13 only has eight teams...
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| Tesch
August 4, 2011
11:14:20 AM
Entry #: 3775627
| Type, and it was an example, pick another league then. You get the point.
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| 3
August 4, 2011
10:13:03 PM
Entry #: 3775965
| I dont give a damn about who gets in on the bottom of the bracket. I am just fine with the Hornets getting in, it only makes our league seem stronger.
I simply dont understand why we were not represented to get a #1 overall for the very reasons that you gave in your novel.
Why would we want to stay in Hayward, as was suggested at the meeting? Perhaps the answer is that they thought we would like to be close to home. In that event, we should be asked.
Why in the hell would we want to play under the lights in Hayward? They are football lights on a baseball field.
Why would Onalaska and the Knights get the two teams that are the auto bids and the worst teams in the tourney?
We were not represented at the meeting by the people who were supposed to be there to represent us. Their team, however, was very well represented.
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| Deluxe
August 4, 2011
10:56:44 PM
Entry #: 3775978
| Frank, about the only part of your post I can agree with is that nobody pushed for you guys to be the #1 overall seed. With that said, there were two teams who ran the table this year, and that's tough to argue against as well. Still though, a case could have been made for you guys as the overall top seed.
However, the rest sounds like petty whining to me. Are the league representatives supposed to read your minds, or ask every team from the league who is in the playoffs what their preferences are? If you have a preference, LET THEM KNOW! That's also the reason I mentioned in my post above that there should be better communication between the league reps and the teams getting in, for precisely that case, but that's a two way street, if it means that damn much to you, make the effort to let it be known.
Also, I'm sure that whoever you play against in Hayward won't have to worry about the crappy lights because they'll get to play under different ones, giving them the advantage. You guys play on the same damn field with the same damn conditions. If anything, YOU guys have the advantage because you've played there a few times a year and will have more experience with the lights and infield.
On to Onalaska and the Knights getting "the worst teams in the tourney." If you hadn't noticed Frank, Osceola made it to state last year, just as far as you guys got. In addition, we're playing on their home field in front of their fans. But to your point, if they've got football lights on a baseball field, we might have a shot because it's such a crime for the team who is used to playing under those conditions to have to do so in a first round playoff game.
Bottom line, yeah, the league reps could have fought for you a bit more for that top seed, would it have mattered? Maybe, maybe not. But cut the bulls*** about you getting such a god awful first round draw and us getting a "gift" first round matchup. If you think you're good enough for the overall #1, you shouldn't be so worried about the #4 that you're playing close to home in the first round.
If you're going to keep complaining about your first round matchup better add a Kleenex box to your baseball bag.
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August 5, 2011
12:24:30 AM
Entry #: 3776012
| Whiney is when you ask to go elsewhere because the "Indy umps dont like you" If you want to find whining, dont look too far.
I guess you are right though, we are not a team who is going to go asking for favors. Enjoy your first round against that tough team...lmao.
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| Brill15
August 5, 2011
8:32:23 AM
Entry #: 3776090
| This is fun to watch the back and forth!
You both like to stir it up a bit and that's what makes this fun to read, I'm not much of a stir-er so feel free to stop reading if you're expecting me to call someone a pussy or something.
I agree with both of you in certain aspects. I'm personally not overjoyed with the location and time of our first game but like Hill said I think we're a good team and I welcome a challenge of any team at any time, it's how you find out if you're really the best. I also agree that there needs to be MUCH better communication between teams and their league representatives, and I think that goes both ways. I know that our reps aren't politicians and it's not their paying jobs to work on our behalf, but I would like to see in the future more work by both parties to make sure things are sorted out and known before the meeting.
I think a lot of the controversy around this issue has come from the way the tournament is set up by the WBA, the highly subjective process is going to consistently create controversy because there is no clarity or predictability in the process. If the rules were that teams were seeded 1-32 and 1 played 32 unless both teams were hosts, and so on, with only minor deviations for extreme cases, then people wouldn't have much to complain about (I'm sure they still would a little though). When the process comes across as a few guys willing to talk louder than the others at a meeting just suggesting where teams go and who-plays-who it looks bad. Not saying that the guys suggesting where people go have an evil plan to screw people over, just that it makes the WBA look unorganized and stuck in a good-ol'-days mentality.
I don't like going into games thinking we a bad deal, excuses before playing is setting yourself up to lose, so everything this year is what it is and I'm done talking about that. Going back and forth between teams or even within teams on who got a good deal who got a bad deal doesn't move the ball forward at all. I do think that watching the meeting and getting to see what happens at them has woken the league up to an issue, and not necessarily a simple one. I hope that in coming months and years this sparks more activity by players in the Indy League to be active in the league board and the WBA board, to come with some new ideas, and hopefully demand that a better system is put in place. A system that's not so subjective, one that doesn't have teams manipulating the bidding system to ensure protection for lesser teams to get in the playoffs, and makes the WBA as a whole more representative and fair.
Sorry for being boring, Erik and Frank are lovers and Derc is just mad because Frank dumped him, is that better?
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| Tesch
August 5, 2011
8:55:25 AM
Entry #: 3776104
| I'm not really thaaaaaaaat mad that the Hornets made it in, Frank, you're right, it does make our league seem stronger.
And Kirby, yeah, I'm pissed that Frank dumped me. Real pissed.
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| 3
August 5, 2011
10:15:41 AM
Entry #: 3776150
| I was trying to say exactly what Kirby said, only meaner.
At times I feel as though I always think the grass on the other side is greener. That is why I switch on and off with Hill and Tesch all the time. After Erik pasted me with his last post, I love you once again Derc.
But Erik, you are right. We still will have 18 guys between the two teams playing at one time and it will be on the same field, and we may even have the advntage. These are all things that we as a team have talked about, but once I have started an argument and have taken a side, it is hard to switch, no pun intended.
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| Tesch
August 5, 2011
1:13:19 PM
Entry #: 3776255
| But Frank, you took the side of liking girls, and I heard you switched. I mean, there's nothing wrong with liking dudes, but stay consistent with your arguments.
And this conversation is clearly over when it comes to the seeding....
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| KM
August 5, 2011
5:28:20 PM
Entry #: 3776380
| Frank... I'm hurt.
Apparently, spending a magical night in a van, in the rain, one-on-one, doesn't carry as much weight as it used to.
Good luck to all you guys in the WBAs. I miss you all.
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| 3
August 5, 2011
6:28:20 PM
Entry #: 3776395
| You got nothing on Mau and my van. But I think I speak for everyone in the league when I say we miss YOU also.
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| Chris LaBreche
August 8, 2011
6:04:47 PM
Entry #: 3777759
| Everyone,
As the person who put the seeding meeting together this year (and as the WBA Secretary), I'm happy to see that we have an excellent discussion on the events of last Tuesday. Let me elaborate on what happened and why it happened as it did. First, we all know that the playoffs are structured as follows 1) they are single elimination, 2) there are 32 teams competing from 6 leagues, 3) there are four host sites (who are allowed to enter a team regardless of record more on that later...) Second, the tournament committee (WBA directors) determines the other 28 teams who will compete, based upon several guidelines. Those guidelines include: a team's winning percentage, the number of teams in each specific league (based upon rosters submitted by July 10th), and the number of teams each league has in proportion to the total in the WBA.
The rule of thumb being that each league receives playoff berths for the top half of its teams. That stated, I should say that league representatives are not allowed to vote on the decisions made by the tournament committee they can present information to influence the committee, but they have no vote. Now, as was stated in earlier posts, and in an e-mail I'd sent in response to Ashland C&S, the leagues were as follows DL (14), IND (12), SCV (12), CR (11), MV (9), and U13 (8). If the WBA wanted to strictly allocate playoff spots by the Article 13, section 4 interpretation, everyone would know that the DL would get 7 playoff spots, the IND and SCV would get 6 spots, the CR would get 5 spots, and both the MV and U13 would get 4 spots before the season started. Of course, if a team or two folded shop before the end of the year, then you have an issue... So who was being considered for the last five playoff berths? These seven teams were listed
Haugen Hornets (9-7)
Ellsworth Hubbers (9-7)
La Crescent Cardinals (9-7)
Ashland Merchants (8-6)
Oulu Bluejays (8-6)
Ashland C&S (8-6)
Taylor County (7-6)
Keep in mind that the Independent League and St. Croix Valley League had only 5 teams in they were supposed to have 6 teams. Same thing for the Mississippi Valley League they only had 3 of their 4 teams in. So, as I saw it, it came down to picking two teams out of the four Dairyland and Upper 13 League squads. IF the Hornets OR the Hubbers lose their last game, then I'm dead certain that all of the Upper 13 teams listed above would have made it. Sadly for them, that didn't happen.
So, for better or worse, we picked our 32 team field. From there, I HOPED to rank the teams from 1 to 32. It didn't happen, mainly because the committee thought it would take too much time, and some members thought it would mess up the pairings. Instead, we identified four seeding groups (as was done in the past) - 1's, 2's, 3's, and 4's. #1 seeds were subsequently paired up with #4's, but this was done primarily based upon a team's location rather than its ranking overall. Why is it done this way? Because some teams want to save money and not drive that far to a site (one explanation.) Other league champs want to play in front of their home crowd, so they lobby to play closer to home. In any case, even if we ranked the seeds, we would have to move teams around, if only to avoid pairing teams from the same league against each other in the first round... Do I think host sites should get an automatic bid? No. I personally believe too much of our playoff system is dictated by host sites / teams, which is fueled by $. However, without the money and fans, as Mike Roiger pointed out, we have a hard time maintaining the WBA as an entity... I think an alternative would be to either A) look at moving to a double elimination tournament, or B) handling the semi-final sites as we do the finals by rotating venues, with LEAGUE CHAMPIONS acting as site hosts. (Not bloody likely when several teams have to work together to run a baseball tournament!)
Getting back to the meeting, we did manage to rank the #1 seeds and pair their brackets appropriately in the state finals, which was an accomplishment. Previously, the bracket groups were literally drawn out of a hat and put on the schedule, which was nonsensical. So, from my point of view, we made some progress. Did Brill end up with a poor draw? No, unless you're of the mind that they are the best team overall in the WBA going into the playoffs and that's a tough sell (as was pointed out in a previous post) with two undefeated teams. I think the only pairing that would have made more sense for them was to play in Osceola, although the Knights get to deal with that draw, which is not an easy task. The IND basically earned two #1 seeds, and only had 1 #4 seed, which is a testament to the strength of its competition. Like everyone, I'm curious to see who will win the crown this year although it would've been nice to be a part of it with my own team!
Hopefully that answers more questions than it raises best of luck to everyone next weekend, and I hope to see some of you in Coon Valley the following weekend.
Respectfully,
Chris "Frenchy" LaBreche
WBA Secretary/Director
SCVBL Secretary/Treasurer
Hudson River Rats Manager
(that's enough titles, I promise...)
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| Tesch
August 9, 2011
12:15:20 PM
Entry #: 3778207
| Thanks for the clarification, and also thanks for pointing out to Frank that LaCrescent in Hayward (where LaCrescent probably hasn’t played much) isn’t as terrible as he thinks. And that Osceola in Osceola really isn’t a desirable one since they made it to state last year.....
Other thought for the day, I think Hill (Deluxe) should run for some WBA office. Anyway, thanks again Chris for the clarification on the decision making process.
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| 3
August 9, 2011
12:42:44 PM
Entry #: 3778228
| Thank you Frenchy for explaining to Erik and Derc why the Hornets deserved that last playoff spot that the two so desperately did not want them to get. DOUBLE TALK!!!
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| Deluxe
August 9, 2011
2:16:50 PM
Entry #: 3778289
| Frank, I tried explaining to you at the ballpark Saturday, but you took on the argument style of a Flavor of Love contestant and simply continued talking and saying the same thing loudly over and over again so I didn't have a chance to finish what I was saying. Tucked away in the book I've already written on this subject, I did mention before that I though the way things went at the meeting was a bit sketchy at the time and that I also didn't want the Hornets to get in (I told Jeremy the same thing face to face) mostly because I was hoping we could draft someone from their team.
Anyway, the comment I made at the very beginning of this post under Siren was simply an exaggeration of an exaggerated post. I am an amateur comedian (at best) and saw an opportunity for a joke so I took it. The Hornets had a (slightly) better case for getting in than Siren.
In the instant messaging language of one of my old co-workers, TCIPO (this conversation is totally played out).
Frenchy, thanks for the clarification and we'll see you down in Osceola this weekend.
Frank, pack the eye black and the blueblockers for your devastating weekend up in Hayward.
Derc, thanks for ditching me.
Rich, good to see you out.
Howard, good to see you out.
Everyone else: Good game, get ......
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| Travis Thompson
August 9, 2011
2:46:29 PM
Entry #: 3778308
| YOU GUYS TALK TO MUCH....lets play some ball....CAAAANT WAIT
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| 3
August 9, 2011
11:50:30 PM
Entry #: 3778597
| Let the devastation begin...
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| Frenchy's Frenemy in Osceola
August 16, 2011
12:37:37 AM
Entry #: 3782306
| Just a couple of notes on any "Host Conspiracy Theories" or "Wait a Second Frenchy"
• Let's all remember that tournament selection of host sites is an open bid process. Osceola, for example, would not bid if another St. Croix Valley League team wanted to host the semis. We'd be happy to take a year or two off. The reason Osceola normally hosts is simply there aren't a lot of teams willing to host.
• Conspiracy Theory 2 - Hosting the semis is a great money maker. After you pay the $2,000 or whatever the bid is, host teams pay the umps and baseballs, ticket sales, etc. All it takes is for a little inclement weather and without decent sponsorships and concession sales, you'll lose your proverbial jersey off your back.
• Advantages to hosting - there are many - auto bid into the playoffs, playing on your home field, home fans and not having to travel.
• If you want a double-elimination tournament with 8 hosts sites, find 8 teams that will host. Last year, Osceola hosted the 35 and over tourney after allegedly no one else wanted to host it. (not sure if that is true, but that's what i heard)
• Seeding teams 1-32 OR seeding teams with No. 1 thru No. 4 seeds - the outcome is nearly identical. Hello math wizards? The No. 1 ranked team may face the No. 28th ranked team in the state and not the 32 ranked team in the state (under the 4 seed system). Is this really a big deal? And it's impossible to truly rank teams across different leagues that don't play each other. Add in the draftee player factor and some teams playing at home during the playoffs and it really is a wild tournament but that's part of what makes it fun. You never know.
• My only suggestion for the selection process would be for all teams over the .500 mark make the playoffs and if that means adding a play-in tourney for the 4-6 teams on the bubble to fight their way into the tourney so be it. No team should be left out of the playoffs because of a rule limiting teams based on the number of teams in its league. And yes, Osceola would like to host the play-in tourney for the bubble teams. :)
• And finally for what it is worth, Osceola and Oakey Park began hosting games in 1948 and old timers around here are still wondering if there was more of an intense game that last Friday. The WBA and Frenchy must be doing something right since attendance over the weekend for all the games was never better.
• Frenchy, save your rebuttal for when you see me in person in Coon Valley. There will be plenty of time to kill in between beverages at whatever hotspot in West Salem/Coon Valley/La Crosse watering hole you pick.
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