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Author |
TOPIC: safe or out |
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| Neal
July 16, 2013
12:03:54 PM
Entry #: 4074009
| B1 gets caught in a run down between second and third base. During the rundown F6 dives and tags B1 on the back. F6 falls to the ground and the ball pops out of F6’s glove. What is the ruling safe or out
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| Allan
July 17, 2013
10:20:53 AM
Entry #: 4074278
| The answer to me is it depends and is a judgement call. If the ball came out during the tag then thebrunner is safe. If the tag is made, the fielder maintains control and then the ball comes out when the fielder goes to the ground then the runner is out.
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| Greg
July 21, 2013
2:39:49 PM
Entry #: 4075280
| Allan has a very good take on the situation.
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| OPA
July 23, 2013
1:51:32 AM
Entry #: 4075860
| Unless the fielder was trying to transfer the ball while falling, the runner is safe. The fielder must maintain control of the ball through the dive and fall. There is no set time limit as to held it long enough.
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| Neal
July 23, 2013
8:56:03 AM
Entry #: 4075907
| B1 is out since F6 had control of the ball and completed the tag before hitting the ground and losing possession of the ball. F6 is only required to have control of the ball through the tag process to have an out. Rule 1 Tag, Rule 8, Section 7B
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| Perry
July 23, 2013
11:17:31 AM
Entry #: 4075973
| I believe that Neal has the correct answer here. It's never a question of "time," it's always a question of possession. If the defender held the ball securely before, during, and immediately following the applied tag, we have an out. Whether the fielder runs two steps and then hits the ground, or runs thirty steps and then hits the ground, and looses the ball, it does not matter. Did they have possession of the ball before, during, and right after the tag? That is the question.
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| Nov
August 9, 2013
1:58:24 PM
Entry #: 4081287
| opa, you're confusing a tag play with a catch play. neal & perry are spot on.
in a similar situation, if a force play at a base is made then the runner hits the fielder and the ball drops, runner is still out, even if an instant after the catch is made - provided you have a clean catch. runner causing the ball to drop means nothing on that either whereas if it was a tag play it would make a difference
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| Blue 56
August 21, 2013
3:39:29 PM
Entry #: 4084609
| The statement about the play was clear that the ball popped out upon the fielder hitting the ground. The posession rule is clear, the ball coming out of the glove must be voluntary and intentional, as stated this fielder did not meeting that standard. The runner is safe.
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| Perry
August 21, 2013
4:24:32 PM
Entry #: 4084615
| Blue 56: Please cite the rule that you're quoting, about "intentional and voluntary." I'm not aware of it. Thank you.
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| Blue 56
August 22, 2013
10:19:51 AM
Entry #: 4084778
| Definitions page 24 Catch/No Catch both A. and B. A Catch is defined A. 1. Says the removal from the glove (release) must be voluntary.
No Catch is defined B. 1. Says the control must be maintained when falling to the ground.
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| Greg
August 22, 2013
11:30:11 AM
Entry #: 4084798
| This play has absolutely nothing to do with a CATCH. It's a TAG play. You're applying a rule, that does not apply to this play.
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| Blue 56
August 22, 2013
12:46:08 PM
Entry #: 4084814
| Page 24 Catch/No Catch is specifically a legally caught ball which occurs when the fielder catches a batted, pitched or thrown ball with the hand (s) or Mitt/Glove. So now the ball is in the glove and the fielder looses control as part of the play. The rule describes a valid catch/possession and weather or not control of the ball occurred as required for all tag plays. If the ball is in the glove it was caught, having been thrown, hit or whatever, according to the definition. On this play we're talking about possession and the voluntary or involuntary release of the ball which determines weather or not control was exhibited. Why would you think the definition of a catch only applies to the catch of, I presume, a batted ball? Possession and control needs to occur with all tag plays. You must have seen an umpire say "Show Me The Ball" he was seeing if the fielder still had the necessary control after a play. According to the question it was stated that the ball popped out as the fielder hit the ground. So the ball coming out of the glove was involuntary making the runner safe.
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| Greg
August 22, 2013
1:01:54 PM
Entry #: 4084821
| So if I run 10 feet after the tag and fall down, the runner is not out? You better rethink. Wrong rule for the wrong play. CATCH and a TAG are two (2) different things.
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| Blue 56
August 22, 2013
1:40:48 PM
Entry #: 4084832
| So you're not going to address the rules I cited and why they don't apply and the real rules that you are going by? You are not going to address the common occurrence cited of "Show Me The Ball" and why that happens routinely and what the umpire is looking for. I have cited the two different rules to clarify my belief and that governed my conclusions. You have just said I'm wrong and that I need to rethink my conclusion, maybe I am, so help me and cite for me the rule you used and that I should use to change my opinion and agree with you! You said that a catch and a tag are two different things. That's true but how does that relate to control of a caught fly ball or control after a tag play when the only question is control or the lack of it? You said that if you fall down 10 feet away that somehow changes weather control at the end of the play was exhibited. Please cite your rule and sections.
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| Greg
August 23, 2013
3:16:39 PM
Entry #: 4085129
| Let's just drop it. You've yet to site a rule that applies to the play. You want me to catch the ball, make the tag, and then carry the ball around with me until death. According to you, if I slip and fall three weeks later, and the ball would trickle out, the runner would be safe. That's your opinion, and just like other things, everybody has one.
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| Neal
September 2, 2013
8:25:10 PM
Entry #: 4087488
| Blue56. Rule 8, Section 7b pertains to this rule. I posted it above. I took this play directly from ASA. So I know I am correct.
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| Terry
October 30, 2013
12:47:15 AM
Entry #: 4101346
| Blue 56? You would be better off officiating a chess match. Softball is obviously not for you...
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| Nov
November 20, 2013
1:41:16 PM
Entry #: 4105636
| Blue56, everyone that replied to you said basically the same thing, as did i just prior to your posting. catch and tag are 2 DIFFERENT PLAYS and covered by DIFFERENT RULES. as long as control is maintained THROUGH THE TAG, you have an out. "show me the ball" is what we ask on a slide/tag play where the ball goes into the glove then is lost slight of briefly and want to make sure fielder still has it - on the play above you haven't lost sight of the glove! you see the ball remains in the glove THROUGH THE TAG.
ball caught on a batted or thrown ball must be removed voluntarily, whether hitting a fence/wall, falling to ground, trying to turn a double play. on a tag, the ball is IN THE GLOVE and the instant the tag is made and the ball remains, it's an out. hitting the ground after has no bearing. a tag play is NOT a CONTINUATION of the play being made.
on your point of control - your last post agreed that TAG & CATCH are two different plays that's progress! what you're missing is the point at which the PLAY ENDS. on a CATCH, it's removal of the ball from the glove intentionally and voluntarily. on a TAG it is the instant the tag is made and the ball remains in the glove - i.e. in mid air.
i won't go so far as Terry's advice but will say this kind of ruling by umpires is a perfect example of an umpire mixing up rules and situations and coming up with a ruling that incorporates parts of both as opposed to focusing on the play that occurred! those umpires make it more difficult for the ones who do know the rules and apply them correctly.
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